Jubal
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 09:54 AM |
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This is a crap situation Steve. Seems like your only option is to seek rehoming. Dunno if any of the following can help:
RSPCA Gonsal Farm 0300 123 8642 Dorrington, Shrewsbury, SY5 7ET
RSPCA Macclesfield 01625 669620
The Dogs Trust 01952 770225 Roden Lane Farm, Telford, TF6 6BP
RSPCA Wallasey 0151 638 6318 Cross Lane, Wallasey
RSPCA Warrington, Halton and St Helens 01925 632944 Slutchers Lane, Bank Quay, Warrington, WA1 1NA
RSPCA Stoke (North Staffs Branch) 01782 871871
Alsager Animals in Need 01270 875260
Mid Cheshire Animal Welfare, Northwich 01606 46377
Sandbach Animal Rescue 01270 766905
Shropshire Cat Rescue 01743 357912
PDSA Stoke on Trent 01782 413415 Assisted vet treatment
Dog Rescue Pages www.dogpages.org.uk
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TimC
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:02 AM |
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Oh, Mate. That is just THE worst news imaginable! You know what I'm like with pets; I'm currently concerned about travelling in South
East Asia because they eat dogs and cats...
Speak to the vet, speak to the Dogs Trust. Their workers know more about dog behaviour than just about anyone I've come across. In fact,
I'll send your original post to an ex-colleague who's wife works with dogs for some advice.
I'm not convinced that a dog killing a dog makes it dangerous to humans. What if the dog looked like a rabbit? Do you see my point?
At the same time, it has to be family first...
God, what a problem to have!
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:07 AM |
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Steve,
This is a difficult one, and not a particularly good one to try to get a public concensus on as there will people on here that love dogs, people who
hate dogs, people who hate dogs and have children, people who love dogs and have children etc so the opinions, to which everyone is entitled, will
cover the whole spectrum. It is also an emmotive issue and I think that you need to get some objective, professional advice.
Out of interest, as I think anyone you talk to will want to know, was the other dog a dog or bitch?
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MikeR
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:15 AM |
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Really feel for you on this one & know i'd be struggling if i was in your position - G/f suggested you try this,
http://www.janfennellthedoglistener.com/
She's supposed to be excellent and it may help if you are considering keeping her.
Good luck and I hope no one else ever has to go through this decision making process.
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:24 AM |
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I don't know whether it was a dog/bitch, it's a west highland white, and did nothing but bark/yap at everything and everyone. Please
don't misinterpret this remark as aloofness as to what my dog did, I am merely commenting.
Thanks for the comments, both good and bad, I knew asking for advice here, would return advice that I didn't want to hear (I have to admit I
didn't expect a couple of the real base responces, that appear to originate from some real pricks on here, but nevermind).
Derek, thanks for the numbers, I've already contacted the local vet, there's only one in Middlewich, I told her everything I know, and she
is coming back to me with some numbers, but I'll get started on those!
She did say that if even if the dog has exibeted this aggression now, and potentially in the past, but never shown it toward a person of any age, then
there are places that will take him. It won't be the same life as family environment, but I do acknowledge that inspite of my confidence of him
never touching a baby, and getting a muzzle etc, that it is something that must be decided by the head and not the heart. The decision to have him not
here anymore was in my mind straight away, but the decision to have him killed because he did something that I don't know the initiating
circumstances is also something that I know would not happen either.
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Jasper
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:28 AM |
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Sorry to here it mate, for what it's worth I think you're doing the right thing, take it slowly, get as much good professional advice as
you can.
If you're not living life on the edge you're taking up too much room.
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Steve G
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
I agree with lots of the above, in that it's a risk that is not worth taking even though I am confident in it#s future behaviour. I hope that I
don't wee people off on here by not taking what they've called the only option, but I will do my best to get him taken to a dogs trust or
something, but with nothing hidden about what's happened...
Sorry but i really think that your confidence in his future behaviour is misplaced. I bet the neighbours didnt think their dog would attack yours when
they let him in and realised their silly mistake - wouldnt mind betting this has some bearing on their decission to not be taking action.
Simply put, dogs are a pack animal and naturally defend their territory and position in "the pack". I bet its odds on the
neighbour's dog went for yours when its territory was invaded by your neighbours letting him in. A fight is a fight between dogs and most would
have stopped when there was a winner but its clearly gone further and that to me shows an underlying streak that you didnt know existed.
Ok so you have decided that its in the best interests of your family that the dog is rehomed as you wont see him put down. So the poor animal is about
to lose his territory and place in the pack - so whats going to happen if he gets re-homed? He's got to find his place again and to me that
makes him more likely to attack someone or something again.
Food for thought maybe???
I really think you need to be prepared for no dogs home to want to take him in too. For starters money is tight for many so surely less people
rehoming and giving to charities to fund the homes, its going to be just after Xmas so the centres will no doubt be getting a fair few calls off
parents who made a mistake with a gift, and what centre would take in a dog thats killed? If they re-home a dog that has killed before they would be
destroyed in court if it happened to attack a human - it would be pure negligence for them to do it.
Anyway, good luck with sorting the issue out and i think speaking to the neighbours would be a very wise move - bring them in on the decission. At the
least they are likely to respect you more for it and build bridges between you after whats happened. You will also find out much more about whats
really happened which may make coming to the right decision easier.
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oldtimer
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 10:33 AM |
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What an awful thing to happen. Sadly the dog has now killed and may kill again. You owe it to those around you, and to others who innocently may be
around, to remove the dog from any possibility of killing/harming again. I belive there is only one, unpleasant though safe, solution. Sorry.
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maskell01
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 11:08 AM |
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Very sorry to hear that!but on a lighter note,christmas dinner is sorted!
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afj
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 11:23 AM |
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We have kept dogs since i was i kid, i would'nt worry to much about the dog on dog killing, our racing grey hounds used to fight all the time
and if they wernt split up there would be deaths, and the rottweilers would bring home pheasants and once a small monk jack, but if you and wifey
dont trust the dog anymore then get him taken away im sure a shelter or charity will take him
eerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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scootz
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 11:29 AM |
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There seems to be a train of thought that the dog will now be 'addicted to killing'... as if the taste of blood has turned him into some
kind of vampire-canine!
It's a dog... it will kill things! Ours will kill (and usually eat) anything that's small, furry and runs away from them. I suspect they
would also chase and kill a smaller dog if it strayed onto the farm. Hell, they were chasing a pack of deer 3-times their size yesterday... who knows
what they were going to do if they caught one - revert to type probably, kill it and eat it!
Having said all that - they're perfectly sociable dogs and (seem to) love the kids... I still wouldn't trust them though as they are
animals!
If it were me, then I'd try and re-home him... try a local farm - sounds like he'd be an ideal 'ratter'. But be up-front with
what's happened.
If that fails, then it sounds like you've lost trust in him, in which case he has to go to the big kennel in the sky!
It's Evolution Baby!
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scootz
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 11:30 AM |
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afj... you posted whilst I was typing mine - amen, brother!
It's Evolution Baby!
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Andy B
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 11:41 AM |
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Steve
really feel for you, I have had black Labs all my life, the last fella for 15 years as a constant companion. I have experienced many things during my
20 plus years in the Fire Service but not many made me feel as bad as the day I had to make the call for him.
His succesor is now nearly 2 and shaping up quite nicely but an incident like you have just experienced raises the question - are we asking to much
from them.
To expand, my dog is the family pet and massively protective of both my partner and the children, at the same time he is my gun dog and massively
loyal. When certain members of the travelling community tried to relieve me of my garage contents he took a piece out of them and got a good kicking
for his troubles, for this we praised him but conversely when the neighbours dog came into the garden and got fighting he got a good boll#cking - it
must be massively confusing for them to understand what we are expecting in all situations.
I see that you dont know the full details of how this dreadful event occurred but just supposing the other dog kicked off first - I know what I would
do if my back was against the wall, strangely enough our neighbours dog is some type of terrier which seems to spend its entire lfe attacking bigger
animals including humans
- I think it has small man syndrome!
So whilst I cant offer any advice, I can sympathise with your situation and hope that you can find a satisfactory solution
Best regards
Andy
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thunderace
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 12:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by billy
Thats a bit harsh my freind, you cant blame the owner here! you got a bad mixture of dog there, the rusell is a very tough dog, its mixed with a
muscly dog like a staff, so its a very capable killing dog. my jack would take on any dog much bigger than him, once they start to fight theres no
stopping them
if you socialised it when it was a pup it would not attact other dogs .
YOU DONT GET BAD DOG JUST BAD OWNERS
if you think it may bite other dogs muzzil it?
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hicost blade
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 01:53 PM |
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I’m really sorry to hear what happened especially at this time of year
Couple of questions
How old was the other dog?
Was it healthy?
Did yours it rip it to pieces?
You never know your dog could have been 'playing' and given the other dog a heart attack.
My old Lab and Jack Russell used to scrap all the time, as in Jack Russell’s head inside Labs mouth type of scrap, the Jack Russell gave as good as
she got BTW.
These always seemed like real fights but they were only playing and nether of them ever got injured in any way.
I could imagine my Lab going next door and showing his teeth to our neighbours Highland Terrier and it having a heart attack.
In fact I’m sure one the neighbours (pedigree/inbred) Highlands dropped dead the other day from a heart attack, I will ask him later.
I think the 'taste for blood' is a bit of a fallacy unless you’re talking about a desperate, starving animal (which yours obviously
isn’t).
They may be a bit stupid but not stupid enough to want to eat a fresh warm highland terrier.
I would get the facts, maybe pay for an autopsy of the other dog, at least then you are clearer in your mind what happened.
If it did grab it by the throat and collapse its windpipe then put the thing down, that would show that it knows how to kill and if it even nips a
kids throat it could easily kill it!
But my guess is heart attack and your dog really can’t be held responsible for that, the blame would then lie with the person who let yours in their
house.
I hope you manage sort this out have a good Christmas
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scootz
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 02:21 PM |
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All dogs will naturally go for the throat if they get an opportunity... instinct tells them that it's the best way of disabling another animal!
They practice it in play when they're pups. The only time they will 'rip another dog apart' is post-mortem if they intend eating
it, or the battle is so fierce that they have to re-affirm a grip time and again and skin tears as a result.
Every time a new pup arrives on the farm it playfully attacks the older dogs... it gets battered each and every time, but it keeps doing it! I
couldn't even hazard a guess as to the amount of times 'Lil Poppy (the youngest) was swung around by the throat. It just takes a little
bit too much pressure and it's game (literally!) over!
Your incident could well have been the canine equivalent of a 'square-go' where one guy punches another and he dies as a result of the
single-blow. Bit unfair that he should be regarded in the same manner as a bloke who goes out with a knife looking to murder people, so why should a
dog be any different!
Sure, it sounds like your dog's a bit of a rough one... but he can be turned around (it's a load of bollox that you can't teach an
old dog new tricks). However, I suspect that you won't have the time to do it with a wee-one on the way, so try and get him re-homed with a
strong owner.
It's Evolution Baby!
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imp paul
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 02:36 PM |
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i feel very sad for you mate but its your pet and i hope you sort things out but also it mite not be your dogs fault i wish you all the best at this
time good luck paul
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scootz
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 02:39 PM |
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PS - Odd the timing of this subject coming up as my mate had a Cocker-Spaniel... little timid thing - great with the kids. Last month one of the kids
he and his wife fosters (a 10 year old I think) thought it would be a good idea to put his head into the dog's bowl and pretend to eat as she
was having her daily meal. The dog snapped once at him and ripped his ear off.
ABSOLUTELY, not the dogs fault... it did what mother-nature had taught her to do. But as it was a kid (and someone else's at that) the dog was
immediately destroyed!
Real shame!
It's Evolution Baby!
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JoelP
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 02:52 PM |
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you'll find a farmer who'll have him. We were working on a farm where the guy had about 9 hounds, it was mayhem when they were let out.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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marcjagman
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 03:21 PM |
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From a legal point of view the responsability lies with whoever is responsable for the maintenance of the fence.
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splitrivet
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 03:25 PM |
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If your Missus is unhappy about keeping the dog I would say your decisions been made for you.
In saying that Ive owned 3 Staffs Bullies all of which were scrappers and have cheerfully tried to kill other dogs but were 100% safe around any
humans of any shape or size.
The Jack Russell we have at the moment however is a different kettle of fish he is a right moody little shite and although he loves my 2 year old
Grandson to bits we would never ever leave the 2 alone together and if anything did happen take it from me I wouldnt need a vet to put him down.
As you say the dog has had 2 previous owners this would set alarm bells ringing with me, is he OK around your other kids or is the expected baby the
first.
Cheers,
Bob
[Edited on 24/12/09 by splitrivet]
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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hicost blade
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 03:52 PM |
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Going for the throat in a play fight or even a 'scrap' is going to leave VERY different marks than a dog bite to kill, dogs are very very
good at controlling their bits, you know when a dog is warning you or when it actually want to hurt you. I have had experience of both. A Rhodesian
ridgeback though I got to close to its owner, it hurt me but didn’t break the skin but scared the s**t out of me!!(The owner was fit though) and food
related, Jack Russell drew blood with one bite the little s**t, RIP Penny (and no I didn’t get her put down)
What I was getting at was, did it mean to kill it?
I highly doubt it
Scrapping and gave the dog a heart attack, I will even put a sportsman’s bet on it
I would still re-home it as Jack Russell terrier type dogs and small kids don’t tend to mix. We would never have trusted ours with small kids even
though it never even growled at one.
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 03:59 PM |
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Just to give a quick update, I still don't know the sex of their dog (around 11-12 years old), but after speaking to my dad just now, who went
and brought my dog back as soon as it happened, said that there was no blood anywhere at all on my dog, and couldn't see any on the other dog.
I've spoken to my vet at length now (same vet for the other dog too) and although not examined the other dog, she is convinced that the other
dog would of had a heart attack (this was before I'd learnt about the lack of blood).
There will be 3 months before my baby arrives, and I am going to use this time to find the dog a good home, with a strong owner that knows the full
circmstances and who wants to take my dog. (if anyone can help with this, I will travel anywhere to help and provide anything/everything required).
But, in the mean time, I will not have my dog put down as a result of what happened. My wife has bought two muzzles today (fabric and cage type), I
will build a kennel with run in my back yard to house the dog, so it know's it's place as an outside animal etc.
If people would like to pass comment on what I've decided to do I would, once again, be open to hear positive and negative views.
I am however trying my best to refrain from having an opinion on thunderaces post...
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jeffw
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 05:14 PM |
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There is a large difference between play fighting then the Westie had a heart attack compared with your dog ripped the throat out of the Westie. You
really need to get all the information from the people who witnessed the incident.
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 24/12/09 at 05:19 PM |
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err, with me saying that there was no blood on either dog, I'd be pretty sure that even if it were play fighting that went wrong, or fighting
that went wrong - for you to say that my dog ripped the throat out of the westie would be a bit far fetched and scaremongering???
ps - my above post is written in reference to witnesses of the accident.
pps - I am not excusing my dog. Two dogs had a fight and one dog is dead, hence my dog killed the other dog.
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