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Author: Subject: Hayabusa FI Light
bobinspain

posted on 5/3/12 at 01:06 PM Reply With Quote
Hayabusa FI Light

Since delivery a few weeks ago, I have the FI light illuminated more often than not.

I have done the paper clip 'wheeze' on the mode-switch coupler and got A C00 (no fault) on the diagnostic readout.

My worry is that if I have a genuine fault, I wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the false alarms I'm currently getting.

I have a Gen2 engine (2011) with a PC5 fitted. (I now know I could've saved five-hundred quid by utilising the engine's own ECU). Could it be anything to do with that?

The light may come on 5 miles into a drive, or after 200yds. It goes out on shutdown, doesn't appear to be rev-related. The fuel gauge is inaccurate, that I know, but the 'no-fault' code has me flummoxed.

SJL has been ultra helpful thus far (thankyou Steve). I just thought I'd put it out to a wider audience.

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Peteff

posted on 5/3/12 at 01:33 PM Reply With Quote
It seems to be a common thing on all the Suzuki engines from 600cc up. On a lot of them it seems to be the TPS which causes the problem and there is a wire that you can cut to stop it showing the fault which causes no other problems apparently.





yours, Pete

I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.

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bobinspain

posted on 5/3/12 at 01:50 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
It seems to be a common thing on all the Suzuki engines from 600cc up. On a lot of them it seems to be the TPS which causes the problem and there is a wire that you can cut to stop it showing the fault which causes no other problems apparently.



SJL very kindly sent me the Busa wiring diagram. It's like a cross between spaghetti and a bomb-disposal expert's worst nightmare.
Don't think I dare approach the wiring with anything sharper than the aforementioned paper-clip Pete. Thanks for the input though.

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Davegtst

posted on 5/3/12 at 02:14 PM Reply With Quote
Did you not get a warranty? it's a brand new car!
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Stott

posted on 5/3/12 at 02:41 PM Reply With Quote
On mine, like I said in the previous thread, is related to the flatshifter.

If I drive it using the clutch up and down the box it never comes on. As soon as I rev it and do a flat shift it will come on, due to the ecu seeing that for some reason the ignition was just cut briefly.

Have you tried driving it using the clutch for all shifts and see if the light comes on?

Hth
Stott

[Edited on 5/3/12 by Stott]

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bobinspain

posted on 5/3/12 at 02:58 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stott
On mine, like I said in the previous thread, is related to the flatshifter.

If I drive it using the clutch up and down the box it never comes on. As soon as I rev it and do a flat shift it will come on, due to the ecu seeing that for some reason the ignition was just cut briefly.

Have you tried driving it using the clutch for all shifts and see if the light comes on?

Hth
Stott

[Edited on 5/3/12 by Stott]



Good point Stott. The F/S appears sensitive to any movement of the gear-stick whether clutched or not and it may well operate the cut irrespective. For example when using the clutch (as I do for downshifts, low-speed upshifts and coming to a halt, it's a bugger sometimes to get from 2nd or 3rd back to first/neutral.

Andy Bates is sending me a Flatshifter isolater kit that he fits as standard to his cars. That way I'll be able to tell for definite, because I'll switch the F/S out completely unless I'm 'on a mission.'

I'll post my findings.

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bobinspain

posted on 5/3/12 at 03:02 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Davegtst
Did you not get a warranty? it's a brand new car!




Long story Dave, but as I'm 1,000 miles away, a warranty would have been impracticable.

I opted instead for a 5% (750) discount, which I 'spent' on upping the spec of the car.

(u2u sent).

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iiyama

posted on 5/3/12 at 09:36 PM Reply With Quote
Bob, didnt you have a fuel sender issue? This will be why the FI light it lit. There is a socket that you can jump with a wire and that will give you the error code as to why the FI light it lit. The wiring diagram should show this socket.





If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!

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SJL

posted on 5/3/12 at 10:35 PM Reply With Quote
Yeah I have been through this with Bob. Hence the reason I sent him the wiring diagram and a picture of the plug so he knew what to look for.

At the moment the FI light isn't on so no codes recorded.

Unfortunately we don't know what sender is being used do MK use the Busa one?

I know Bob now has the switch from AB to bypass the Flatshifter so hopefully that will take it out of the equation. I have also suggested that if it still occurs after that to read the codes with the light on.

The other option after that is to disconnect the Power Commander.

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bobinspain

posted on 6/3/12 at 08:56 AM Reply With Quote
Just as an update for the helpful folk who are assisting me on this (and other threads), the evidence, gleaned from various sources would seem to place the 'hot money' on Flatshifter with Power Commander 5 as a close second favourite which may be 'talking to' the FI warning light system and telling it there's a problem. (Power cut to the coil in the case of F/S, or it would appear that the addition of an aftermarket 'black box' like PC5 can interfere with the Busa sensing).

Dynojet (PC5) came back to me yesterday saying they thought it unlikely it was their product that was involved. They did say that they thought there was no 'memory facility' on FI-light and thus in order to read the error code, the light must be on when the bridge (paper clip wheeze) is made. I got C00 (no error), but I didn't have the light illuminated at the time, as I'd simply switched on the ignition with the car in the garage. I may take it out for a blip today and retest with the FI light illuminated.

As Steve (SJL) says, Andy (AB) has very kindly sent me a 'Flatshifter bypass kit' gratis to try to help 'cure' another problem, (see Hayabusa transmission thread). Once the Flatshifter is isolated, I'll get no FI light if it was the culprit. Many thanks again Andy. Assistance above and beyond the call of duty, an exemplar of the standard of service the kit-car industry should aspire to. Truly appreciated. I have emailed you

Graham at Flatshifter is out of the same mould as AB and is being extremely helpful to resolve a problem (not of his own making). Can't speak too highly of his input. Thankyou Graham.

SJL has been patience personified answering my 'schoolboy' questions too.

We'll get there in the end. I just thought I'd publicly thank those individuals who truly deserve it.

Bob.

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iiyama

posted on 6/3/12 at 04:36 PM Reply With Quote
Dont know how the 5 comapres with the 3, however I have a PCIII USB and a trickshifter fitted and the only error code I get is from the tank sender not being calibrated properly.





If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!

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bobinspain

posted on 6/3/12 at 06:33 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by iiyama
Dont know how the 5 comapres with the 3, however I have a PCIII USB and a trickshifter fitted and the only error code I get is from the tank sender not being calibrated properly.



It may well end up being the sender. I simply don't understand why every MK with my spec' doesn't suffer from the same problem. And wouldn't Mk have sussed it as a systematic fault which could easily be remedied and fixed it? As I've said, I've had the float and sender arm out to adjust (bend) it downwards to get some sort of meaningful reading on the fuel gauge.

Graham at Flatshifter emailed to say the following: Pre 2002 Suzuki engines suffered from FI illumination caused by short-burst power cuts triggered by Flatshifter. From 2002 onwards Suzuki de-sensitised the ECU in order that it didn't react to the cuts of power to the coil. Since that time, Flatshifter have never had a single FI issue attributable to the operation of their kit.

Dynojet (PC5) say it's unlikely to be their kit (as they would).

I'm determined to get to the bottom of it, so I'll nip out manana and illuminate the FI light, come home and bridge the block to read the fault code whilst the engine's still running. If it turns out to be a sender code, I have a sparky pal with a 'wiggly-ammeter' to hopefully diagnose the problem.

Bob.

[Edited on 6/3/12 by bobinspain]

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bobinspain

posted on 7/3/12 at 02:17 PM Reply With Quote
OK, been out in the car again and spotted the FI light came on as decelerated using downshift (clutched) braking. Stayed on 'til I got home and did the diagnostic. Code is -C40 which is 'Idle speed control valve'.
Anyone got any ideas?

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SJL

posted on 7/3/12 at 03:33 PM Reply With Quote
Hi Bob,

I don't know if you recall but I mentioned that the Busa has gear based mapping. So a fuel and ignition map for 1st gear,2nd gear etc. The really clever part it it also has a neutral map. This is only activated when the clutch is pulled in to start the bike safety related basically. If you do as I did and remove the clutch switch wiring (basically join the two wires together in the loom) the bike will run in the neutral map all the time.

It has been proven that the bikes lose power with the clutch switch bypassed.

So my question to you is do you have to put the clutch down to start the car?

The thread I found on another forum indicates that the owner bypassed the clutch switch and had intermittent FI lights coming on and poor low speed driveability.

I have a simple fix for this if this does prove to to be case that doesn't involve too much wiring

Post below

"Hi just thought I would share a recent finding on my 08 busa, I jumpered out the clutch overide same as I did on my previous 06 model so I didn't have to pull in the clutch to start....well I find out the 08 doesnt like that at all.

Bike was throwing a FI light with code C40= ISV, was hard to modulate on/off throttle, had me scratching my head and about to take it to the dealer, but did a google on C40 error and got a lead from the gixxer guys. Its the clutch mod....

changed it back bike runs perfectly - go figure they obviously have the cpu check the clutch circuit during operation."

[Edited on 7/3/12 by SJL]

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bobinspain

posted on 7/3/12 at 03:39 PM Reply With Quote
Yes Steve. Clutch must be depressed, otherwise zilch.
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SJL

posted on 7/3/12 at 03:45 PM Reply With Quote
Can we get MK to confirm that they are using the Suzuki interlock with the clutch switch?

It could be they have wired it to not use that and you just need to press the clutch to complete the circuit from the starter button. Then the ECU wouldnt see that the clutch is in

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bobinspain

posted on 7/3/12 at 04:27 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SJL
Can we get MK to confirm that they are using the Suzuki interlock with the clutch switch?

It could be they have wired it to not use that and you just need to press the clutch to complete the circuit from the starter button. Then the ECU wouldnt see that the clutch is in



Steve,
Just spoken to MK. They do use the Suzuki interlock with the clutch switch.
I've emailed the 'story so far' following my conversation with Steve at MK.
(A head-scratching icon would be appropriate).

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SJL

posted on 7/3/12 at 05:34 PM Reply With Quote
Bob any chance you can get a photo of the clutch switch on here please?

My suspicion is that it might be a hydraulic switch. If it is we may have found the culprit

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bobinspain

posted on 7/3/12 at 06:06 PM Reply With Quote
Can do for tomorrow morning Steve.
I may as well telephone MK first thing and ask the q.

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Custardpants

posted on 7/3/12 at 08:12 PM Reply With Quote
does seem very strange bob hope you get it sorted. My light only comes on if I stall the car, and goes out if i take the key out before restart. I did have a faulty clutch position switch on mine which was electric - car wouldn't start at all.
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bobinspain

posted on 7/3/12 at 08:36 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Custardpants
does seem very strange bob hope you get it sorted. My light only comes on if I stall the car, and goes out if i take the key out before restart. I did have a faulty clutch position switch on mine which was electric - car wouldn't start at all.


You may be a lucky one Luke, since in speaking to Steve at MK this evening, he says it's a problem common to all their installations. Downshifting/revs seem to be the key and the combination triggers the C40.
Steve says he's spoken to a 'chip wizard' re' the ECU and he couldn't suss the problem.

Mal at Yorkshire engines suggested a solution involving cleaning the iscv, but given the generic nature of the problem, I'm reluctant to go down that route, as it would involve Suzuki main dealer involvement.

If I get to the bottom of it, It'll be with SJL's formidable input. He has a 'cunning plan.'

Bob.

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SJL

posted on 7/3/12 at 08:59 PM Reply With Quote
To try and help anyone else out here is what I have found out so far.

BEC/bike owners will know a certain amount of this anyway but I will try and describe it so that if anyone has an issue like this in the future it may help - if we are correct in what we think it is.

Most motorbike engines are fairly basic with the fuelling etc compared to car engines. Even with fuel injected engines it was quite common to have a manual enrichment device (choke) normally just a little lever you pulled for cold start.
Car engines have been using idle air valves (ISCV) for 20 plus years as cars have been subject to stricter emission control.

Bike engines have only in the last 5 years or so have had to tighten emission control hence the reason that they now have ISCV's fitted and catalytic converters. So the ECU is taking control of the engine fuelling and ignition systems.

The upside of this is the ability (certainly) with Hayabusa engines is to have a separate map for each gear and neutral through the use of a gear position sensor to tell the ECU which gear it is in and to use the appropriate map.

Hayabusas are restricted in gears through 1-4 all map based. The timing is retarded in those gears as is the case with a lot of the litre bikes. If anyone have ever fitted a TRE (timing retard eliminator) there is probably a good chance that your gear display only now reads 5th gear. Obviously this isnt a particularly good idea as the 5th gear map is being used all the time.

OK so now I have hopefully covered the fuel and ignition side of it lets move onto the relevance of the clutch switch.

Although I rode motorbikes for 15 years I just assumed that the clutch switch was just a safety function to stop you starting in gear. Well in essence it is. Although that has evolved with the improved ECU technology.

Suzuki motorbikes that have gear based mapping will start on their neutral map when the bike is started with the clutch lever pulled in. If as I am sure a lot of us have done you bypass the clutch switch by just joining the wires together the ECU just thinks you are in neutral. The gear position switch will work and indicate you are in whatever gear you choose but the ECU is still running the neutral map.
This usually manifests itself with a reduced upper rev limit of minus 500 rpm and less power. This has been proven on various dyno runs carried out and published on the WWW.

Why have a neutral map? Cars have been doing this for years. Why? Its all about the emissions. When I was working for Subaru we had performance issues with Impreza Turbos and this was discovered to that the machined detent in the gear selector shaft was incorrect and the cars were constantly thinking they were in neutral (as they use a neutral switch as do a lot of car makers) and running a cleaner,lower power map. When are emissions usually tested - stationary and in neutral .

Hopefully I haven't come across as condescending or trying to teach you all how to suck eggs.

So where does this leave us with Bob's car.

One of the solutions to bypassing the clutch switch is to as I have said above is to join the wires together or to use a hydraulically operated brake switch. These work fine for your brake system but are not so good with clutch pedals as they cannot keep up with the change of fluid states from pressure to no pressure. The ECU would then be thinking that the clutch is in and the engine should be running on the neutral map. Although the actual rpm could be anywhere between say 2000 and 10,000 and this would then cause the FI light to come on as the IACV is trying to pull the rpm down to its normal speed.

So in summary if Bob's car has a hydraulic switch for the clutch then there is a good chance that is the cause of the problem.

If it isn't then I am stumped

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iiyama

posted on 7/3/12 at 10:10 PM Reply With Quote
Interestingly I have a TRE and a gear indicator fitted. It shows all six gears with no issues.....





If its broke, fix it. If it aint broke, take it apart and find out how it works!

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SJL

posted on 7/3/12 at 10:20 PM Reply With Quote
The gear indicator on Bobs car works fine as I believe its a GI Pro but the bike clock display is stuck showing 5th.

I never had clocks with my 2007 engine so I dont know if Gen 1 Busas had a gear indicator as standard. Not actually ridden a Busa bike.

Is yours a Gen 1 engine? Are you using the bike clocks?

The normal TRE's that were fitted are just resistors that piggy back into the gear position wiring. I know it has moved on a little now and I have never used a TRE.

I reflashed my car with ECU Editor.

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Davegtst

posted on 8/3/12 at 08:02 AM Reply With Quote
SJL is the clutch switch applicable to all years of hayabusa? I have read that the first couple of years it makes no difference. I have a K1 (2001) in mine and i didn't fit a clutch switch because of this. Starting to think i should do now.
The gen 1 bikes didn't have a gear indicator on the dash btw but my GI PRO works fine.

[Edited on 8/3/12 by Davegtst]

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